[RBH58]

Doesn’t help synchros unless you are double clutching like you should and not granny shifting

The invention of synchromesh means that double clutching is unnecessary leg action. And I’ve never worn out a set of syncros on any car I’ve owned in the last 46 years.

 

[TRU-BOOST]

The invention of synchromesh means that double clutching is unnecessary leg action. And I’ve never worn out a set of syncros on any car I’ve owned in the last 46 years.

It is still used. Its actually still taught at many HP driving courses. But you are right that most of the time most people in most situations will never wear out synchros. But there are those that track drive often and drop multiple gears at high rpm that will take its toll on those synchros. Its not a factory car thing anymore but its not uncommon for people with track cars to have transmissions with straight cut gears. You better believe you are double clutching then. For me its just habit. More than likely not needed, but its muscle memory.

 

[Nialin]

My outlook is a slipping clutch is a wearing clutch. If you arent rev matching you are slipping. Will it be enough to have a noticeable impact on life, I cant give an answer. In my experience clutches in japanese cars (made by exedy) can last forever. But something like a GTI or other modern VW product will fail at the slightest hint of abuse, extra power or poor technique.

I have two friends with VW performance cars, one has a Golf R MK7, other has the new GTI. On Golf R he has had to replace the whole trans (thankfully under warranty), because he was driving hard on track and the R didn't like that :/

Friend with a new GTI however has a different problem, the clutch gets physically stuck for some reason. He changed the oil, and it still does it, he's having it looked at atm at the dealer. Both of them have been driving manuals for over 20 years, so it's not like they don't know how to drive.

 

[Lou]

There’s no reason not to rev match. Why is this even a debate?

Cause it has no benefit during everyday driving? Cause my loud red car and aggressive driving attract enough attention?

The debate is about whether it's bad mechanically not to do it.

 

[Lou]

double clutching like you should

What the fuck is this now? Are we driving semi's? Are we driving cars from the 60's with no synchromesh and straight-cut gears? Please finish your thought.

 

[Nialin]

What the fuck is this now? Are we driving semi's? Are we driving cars from the 60's. Please finish your thought.

I didn't have to "double-clutch" in a car in over 20 years. IDK why everyone is talking about this now with modern cars. Last car I had to double clutch was a Porsche 944 that I bought almost new in 1990.

 

[RBH58]

I didn't have to "double-clutch" in a car in over 20 years. IDK why everyone is talking about this now with modern cars. Last car I had to double clutch was a Porsche 944 that I bought almost new in 1990.

I revmatch always…I double clutch when I’m driving an old car with no…or worn…synchros.

 

[Ginge's 86]

I just leave my car in 3rd all the time to avoid wearing out the clutch... Getting off the line is tough sometimes, but on the plus side it keeps me from putting unnecessary wear on 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th gears.

Also, my gas mileage isn't very good? I don't know why?

When 3rd grenades you still have all those other gears to choose from.

 

[BlyatRZ]

I don't think it makes any real difference in day to day driving, unless of course you are talking about not rev-matching and using the clutch / engine to slow down the car instead of the brakes. Not only would it be jerky and a generally crap driving experience it would burn the crap out of the clutch.

I'm personally very spoiled, my Mustang GT has rev matching and its a manual, my Veloster N had rev matching, so it kind of blows my mind that it isn't a feature on these cars.

 

[Blipblorp]

When 3rd grenades you still have all those other gears to choose from.

 

[DmOcRsI]

You're missing the point.

It's like shooting or fighting or really anything else that you may need suddenly; it's muscle memory.

Practice heel-toe everyday... practice left-foot braking everyday. When you get on the track, it'll be automatic and come naturally.

 

[DylanJZA]

Not sure about these newer cars, but if you try not rev matching on my Supra it won't end well lol

you're not matching engine speed with trans speed, so id say that's not ideal mechanically speaking...

 

[Hachi Electronics]

Downshifting without rev-matching is quite possibly the stupidest idea i’ve ever heard. I’d assume that’s not what’s being described here if not for the fact that i once rode with someone who would simply shift into a lower gear and let out the clutch, resulting in the car lurching and giving some nice crispy clutch smell. He insisted he was “engine braking”.
Anyways, if you can’t handle rev matching, you should have bought an automatic.

 

[Lou]

Downshifting without rev-matching is quite possibly the stupidest idea i’ve ever heard. I’d assume that’s not what’s being described here if not for the fact that i once rode with someone who would simply shift into a lower gear and let out the clutch, resulting in the car lurching and giving some nice crispy clutch smell. He insisted he was “engine braking”.
Anyways, if you can’t handle rev matching, you should have bought an automatic.

Easy big fellow. It's too far from unanimous to be calling it stupid. I'm talking about having your foot on the brake and selecting the next gear down to match the speed you will be going and the acceleration you are expecting when you do let off the brake early in the corner, smoothly feeding out the clutch in the process during the hardest of the straight-line braking. No blipping. No sudden letting out of the clutch. No smell. No jerking - though the engine braking starts contributing in the process. No upset chassis or violent change in weight distribution. No big speed mismatch at either ends of the clutch. This is happening in an urban environment while driving enthusiastically, not at 10 tenths on a track. Think second gear around a typical 90 degree street corner.

 

[TRU-BOOST]

I don't think it makes any real difference in day to day driving, unless of course you are talking about not rev-matching and using the clutch / engine to slow down the car instead of the brakes. Not only would it be jerky and a generally crap driving experience it would burn the crap out of the clutch.

I'm personally very spoiled, my Mustang GT has rev matching and its a manual, my Veloster N had rev matching, so it kind of blows my mind that it isn't a feature on these cars.

I suppose this raises a related question that may shed some light on why this is debated. My question would be how many of us downshift gears while decelerating? Lets say coming to a stop sign on a road where you were doing 50mph. There is the crowd that will pop it into neutral from a block away and coast to the stop sign while on the brakes, come to a complete stop, then start over. There is the other crowd that will blip down every gear and not touch the brakes until the very end of the stop. I honestly do a little bit of both depending on what car I am driving, how the traffic is, weather conditions, etc. That is something that was drilled into my head when taught how to ride a motorcycle. You never want to be coasting out of gear. You get your downshifting done while decelerating and never during or after cornering. You want to be able to stab the throttle to make an evasive maneuver in an optimal gear at all times. You cant do that while slowing down in neutral.

 

[Lou]

I suppose this raises a related question that may shed some light on why this is debated. My question would be how many of us downshift gears while decelerating? Lets say coming to a stop sign on a road where you were doing 50mph. There is the crowd that will pop it into neutral from a block away and coast to the stop sign while on the brakes, come to a complete stop, then start over. There is the other crowd that will blip down every gear and not touch the brakes until the very end of the stop. I honestly do a little bit of both depending on what car I am driving, how the traffic is, weather conditions, etc. That is something that was drilled into my head when taught how to ride a motorcycle. You never want to be coasting out of gear. You get your downshifting done while decelerating and never during or after cornering. You want to be able to stab the throttle to make an evasive maneuver in an optimal gear at all times. You cant do that while slowing down in neutral.

Yes. Sorry if there was any confusion. We are talking about down-shifting during deceleration in preperation for a turn, or even a complete stop. (As opposed to what, I'm not sure...) Foot definitely on the brake.

 

[Dan]

Coming up to a light or stop sign, I'll usually downshift sequentially to third, either just rev-matching or heel-toeing if there's not enough room to rely solely on engine braking, then just go to neutral and stop. Sometimes I'll downshift to second if I'm going too slow for third and think the light will turn green by the time I get to it.

It's not strictly necessary, but it's minimal effort and I like being able to get back on the power right away. I have avoided being rear ended before by squirting over to the next lane as I watched the kid in my mirror lock up his Scion tC's brakes when he finally looked up from his phone. I would not have been able to do that in time if I wasn't already in gear.

 

[TRU-BOOST]

Yes. Sorry if there was any confusion. We are talking about down-shifting during deceleration in preperation for a turn, or even a complete stop. (As opposed to what, I'm not sure...) Foot definitely on the brake.

That clears up some of it for me, because I know plenty of people do not downshift as they slow for a turn. They coast around the turn then grab a gear after they straighten out, which is really bad technique. As for (opposed to what) situations for a downshift.....
Passing. How do you downshift to pass aggressively? I hope that is a rev match and not a clutch slip situation. As a fellow motorcycle rider with track experience I have to say I am extremely surprised you dont downshift while slowing down. Thats like motorcycle 101 on a track or street. Same with performance driving. You do your gear changes before you need them, not when you need them. It keeps the vehicle ready to do what you ask immediately rather than wait for a shift. In an "oh shit" moment you will be glad you were ready. This all says why you should be downshifting but not HOW. I dont think anyone can argue the fact that matching revs is always the best practice. Its important enough that many manufacturers build cars that can do it for you now. They know its is far less abuse on the mechanicals and many people dont rev match or do a bad job at it.

 

[Blipblorp]

Contrary to my previous sarcastic statements, I do in fact rev-match downshifts 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if I'm coming to a complete stop or just slowing to make a turn, I always do it. It's likely a habit I picked up from learning on and also daily driving air-cooled VWs between the ages of 16-25. Transaxles that were designed during WWII don't shift that great without rev-matching.

 

[Lou]

That clears up some of it for me, because I know plenty of people do not downshift as they slow for a turn. They coast around the turn then grab a gear after they straighten out, which is really bad technique. As for (opposed to what) situations for a downshift.....
Passing. How do you downshift to pass aggressively? I hope that is a rev match and not a clutch slip situation. As a fellow motorcycle rider with track experience I have to say I am extremely surprised you dont downshift while slowing down. Thats like motorcycle 101 on a track or street. Same with performance driving. You do your gear changes before you need them, not when you need them. It keeps the vehicle ready to do what you ask immediately rather than wait for a shift. In an "oh shit" moment you will be glad you were ready. This all says why you should be downshifting but not HOW. I dont think anyone can argue the fact that matching revs is always the best practice. Its important enough that many manufacturers build cars that can do it for you now. They know its is far less abuse on the mechanicals and many people dont rev match or do a bad job at it.

Still some confusion. Of course, I downshift when riding. At full lean and apex, my trajectory is corrected by either a tad of throttle or a tad of engine brake and the tiny change it makes on the geometry of the suspension. And I happen to rev-match blip going into the corner because I'm braking so hard that the back wheel can get locked or spun up just by blowing on it wrong, right as the track limits are rushing at you - not a good time for a speed mismatch. When I blip, that same hand is crushing the brake lever. I release the clutch fairly fast, but never violently. Like I said earlier, it's not an on-off switch. (In a car, a bit of a speed mismatch isn't nearly as much of an issue. It's actually fun to purposely break the rears loose on snow or in the wet with a slightly too violent downshift. Back in the age of powersliding, the AMA guys could start a slide like that too.)

So back to the topic. I am never out of gear. I downshift and engine brake pretty much anytime I use the actual brakes, whether easy or hard. But I don't blip in the street. And yet there isn't any real lurching going on because it gets let out smoothly and the revs are pretty well-matched anyhow. So technically, the clutch is doing some "extra" work. But my contention is that that's its job and it's oversized anyhow. If I can make it to 60,000 miles that way, would I really get more out of it by blipping and rev-matching those downshifts?