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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
The 2nd-generation Toyota 86 is delayed until next year due to Akio Toyoda wanting their entry-level sports car to have more differences from the Subaru BRZ(as compared with the 1st-generation twins). What do you guys think?

Check out the video below for more info.:

931
 

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Im so disappointed, I hope they do some heavy upgrades if it’s going to be another year, but gives me more time to get a good down payment together
 

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I'm kind of shocked by this. I wonder what big changes they are planning though. Could really be worth the wait.

It does make sense because we haven't heard anything out of Toyota about a debut, a teaser, anything.
 

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Shouldn't this have been something Toyota planned before they started developing the cars? If it's a performance difference like the video suggests, i guess they'll tune the engine a bit different like the Supra's engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Shouldn't this have been something Toyota planned before they started developing the cars? If it's a performance difference like the video suggests, i guess they'll tune the engine a bit different like the Supra's engine?
I believe if Toyota will add the GR name to the 86, they want the performance of the GR models to speak for themselves; and not be criticized for just slapping the name with nothing to gain. There were very few differences with the 1st-generation Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ. They behave almost the same, look similar aside from badging and minor exterior and interior changes. Toyota has worked hard to have a more differentiated result with the Toyota Supra/BMW Z4, though, still, a lot of enthusiasts said it still feels very BMW. One thing I don’t like with the Supra is the interior door mechanism and design, especially with the door pin, which is very BMW. I hope this time around, with the 2nd-generation 86, Toyota will give the 86 its own identity, make it feel like a real Toyota, so that when enthusiasts drive one, they won’t say it’s a BMW or Subaru; but a Toyota instead.
 

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I believe if Toyota will add the GR name to the 86, they want the performance of the GR models to speak for themselves; and not be criticized for just slapping the name with nothing to gain. There were very few differences with the 1st-generation Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ. They behave almost the same, look similar aside from badging and minor exterior and interior changes. Toyota has worked hard to have a more differentiated result with the Toyota Supra/BMW Z4, though, still, a lot of enthusiasts said it still feels very BMW. One thing I don’t like with the Supra is the interior door mechanism and design, especially with the door pin, which is very BMW. I hope this time around, with the 2nd-generation 86, Toyota will give the 86 its own identity, make it feel like a real Toyota, so that when enthusiasts drive one, they won’t say it’s a BMW or Subaru; but a Toyota instead.
I agree. Im actually very surprised and delighted that Toyota is going to step up and do something to make their cars more true to themselves.
 

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I don't believe this in the slightest. I think they're covering up the fact that COVID is delaying their reveal shindig, and they want it to sound like it's for a more interesting reason.

IMO the differences will be:
Bumper
Paint colors
Badges
Spring tuning (probably stiffer in the rear)
Small interior differences (Cluster, Headunit, Color accents)

Just like last time. Mayyyybe the dampers will be different but I don't think they will bother.
 

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The 2nd-generation Toyota 86 is delayed until next year due to Akio Toyoda wanting their entry-level sports car to have more differences from the Subaru BRZ(as compared with the 1st-generation twins). What do you guys think?

Check out the video below for more info.:

View attachment 931
Most of the comments on the youtube video make me sad. "PuT a tURbo In iTTTT." And everyone for whatever reason wants the gr yaris engine and turbo combo for a bit more hp. Do they not realize that the chassis and just about everything else would have to change? Yes because going from a flat 4 with an even lower center of gravity (and the previous chassis was literally designed around the engine) to an inline definitely wouldn't change anything else. At first I was tremendously disappointed by this news but now I'm glad because it gives people a year to go back and think about their comments and reflect on life in general. This obsession to make everything a turbo is asinine, as are people that keep condemning this vehicle for "being too slow." It's a gosh dang momentum vehicle not a GT!!! I've even read comments about people complaining about the weight increase on other forums. Like HKS and other companies won't come out with aftermarket stuff... And if Toyota just slaps a turbo on their car I'd want better tie rods, different fuel injectors, and a better head gasket at least. At this point we are not looking at a 30-33k car. I have a suspicion most of those people have no intention of buying an 86 to begin with, and if they are just looking for a straight line 0-60 at a similar price point, I hope they know the mustang still exists.
 

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Most of the comments on the youtube video make me sad. "PuT a tURbo In iTTTT." And everyone for whatever reason wants the gr yaris engine and turbo combo for a bit more hp. Do they not realize that the chassis and just about everything else would have to change? Yes because going from a flat 4 with an even lower center of gravity (and the previous chassis was literally designed around the engine) to an inline definitely wouldn't change anything else. At first I was tremendously disappointed by this news but now I'm glad because it gives people a year to go back and think about their comments and reflect on life in general. This obsession to make everything a turbo is asinine, as are people that keep condemning this vehicle for "being too slow." It's a gosh dang momentum vehicle not a GT!!! I've even read comments about people complaining about the weight increase on other forums. Like HKS and other companies won't come out with aftermarket stuff... And if Toyota just slaps a turbo on their car I'd want better tie rods, different fuel injectors, and a better head gasket at least. At this point we are not looking at a 30-33k car. I have a suspicion most of those people have no intention of buying an 86 to begin with, and if they are just looking for a straight line 0-60 at a similar price point, I hope they know the mustang still exists.
I admit I was a bit bummed when I found out there wasn't going to be a turbo but I've gotten over it and people in those comments need to as well. If they want one so badly they can install one as soon as they buy the car.
 

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I don't believe this in the slightest. I think they're covering up the fact that COVID is delaying their reveal shindig, and they want it to sound like it's for a more interesting reason.

IMO the differences will be:
Bumper
Paint colors
Badges
Spring tuning (probably stiffer in the rear)
Small interior differences (Cluster, Headunit, Color accents)

Just like last time. Mayyyybe the dampers will be different but I don't think they will bother.
If it is a PR thing Toyota is trying to pull, there's going to be some backlash if they don't make any major changes to the car.
 

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I think it is partly PR. Remember Toyota owns (I think 10% of Subaru). Delaying the car gives the BRZ a chance to become established. Also Toyota already has the 4 cylinder Supra out so they can afford to wait on the GR86. What ever changes are occurring it is going to be primarily cosmetic. There is not going to be a different engine or a turbo. It could be different tuning, different suspension settings certainly different front and rear styling. Possibly some minor interior differences. I think primarily it is to get the BRZ established in sales. The 86 outsold the BRZ over 2 to 1 in the current generation.
 

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I admit I was a bit bummed when I found out there wasn't going to be a turbo but I've gotten over it and people in those comments need to as well. If they want one so badly they can install one as soon as they buy the car.
Exactly. They aren't going to go and throw out a really good engine, and completely mess up displacement because people are shouting for a turbo. I'm already envisioning a new air intake, maybe Takeda with a new HKS intake manifold, fuel intake kit, and exhaust with an Edelbrock supercharger and a re-tune. Sure the new Yaris setup has 40hp more, but I wouldn't sacrifice the engine size or center of gravity for that when mechanically, the car is going to be amazing (based on the new BRZ) and my future baby is going to be brilliant. I can see it now. Kinda.
 

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If Toyota does more aggressive gear ratio's to improve acceleration then they give up fuel economy. That might be able to get a little bit more power out of the FA 24 but I could see making the car a little lighter than the BRZ by say 50LBS. Doing that and getting an additional 15 Horsepower out of it might make a little difference. Re-tuning the shocks and springs different tires and wheels might be all the GR86 needs. I'm also guessing a little less sound deadening.
 

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Looks like more outlets are picking up the story now.

 

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Looks like more outlets are picking up the story now.

Well-I can understand different styling as important. However increased engine performance via slightly more horsepower and a shorter final drive ratio might give us a clue to where Toyota want to price the 86 versus the BRZ. In the current generation the BRZ has been traditionally priced higher than the 86. For generation 2 that may now be reversed. Being that the 4 cylinder supra Turbo is priced in the low 40K range there is room to price the 86 in the mid 30's range. The BRZ then would end up being the slightly more affordable choice with slightly less performance.
 

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Sounds like Toyota is learning from the new Supra and carrying over some of that approach here. Aside from the obvious non-Toyota things, do you guys think the Supra is enough of a Toyota?
 

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I think it is partly PR. Remember Toyota owns (I think 10% of Subaru). Delaying the car gives the BRZ a chance to become established. Also Toyota already has the 4 cylinder Supra out so they can afford to wait on the GR86. What ever changes are occurring it is going to be primarily cosmetic. There is not going to be a different engine or a turbo. It could be different tuning, different suspension settings certainly different front and rear styling. Possibly some minor interior differences. I think primarily it is to get the BRZ established in sales. The 86 outsold the BRZ over 2 to 1 in the current generation.
I did a quick search and apparently Toyota's stake in Subaru is over 20% now (as of 2019). Maybe Toyota is going to help Subaru out.


Toyota Motor Corp 7203.T on Friday announced plans to raise its stake in Subaru Corp 7270.T to more than 20% as Japan's biggest automaker cements ties with its smaller rival to better compete with overseas automakers to develop new technologies.
 

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If Toyota does more aggressive gear ratio's to improve acceleration then they give up fuel economy. That might be able to get a little bit more power out of the FA 24 but I could see making the car a little lighter than the BRZ by say 50LBS. Doing that and getting an additional 15 Horsepower out of it might make a little difference. Re-tuning the shocks and springs different tires and wheels might be all the GR86 needs. I'm also guessing a little less sound deadening.
With their hybrid vehicle lineup and overall volume, Toyota probably has more room to give up fuel mileage in a low-volume vehicle. Won't be a big effect on their overall fleet averages,.

I could see several places they can make changes without the price getting silly (or some of these places could trend to silly):
  • Suspension tuning. This is pretty easy - changes in springs, dampers and sway bars are bolt-on items. If Toyota doesn't have appropriate parts in their design group, outsourcing to providers like Swift, Eibach, Koni, et al, shouldn't be difficult. Not like those same companies won't be prepping their own packages for the car. Other than the front bumper styling, this was the main mechanical difference between the original BRZ and FR-S. The Scion had a very different front/rear bias in spring stiffness that produced more tendency to oversteer.
  • Gear ratios - sub a 4.3 overall gearing for, say, 4.1 and instant acceleration boost. If they want to get some of the mileage losses back, Toyota could add a taller 6th gear without any real effect on curvy road/track experience.
  • Engine tuning. The quick step here is different software in the engine management system. Maybe the new engine's tune left some performance on the table to get mileage. Changing parts like the exhaust header or throttle body could get more gains, but be more complicated/expensive. Going for an 8000 RPM redline would be a major upgrade, but if that takes internal changes that means $$$$$$.
  • Other performance elements. Maybe they could make the performance package Brembos standard as a match to the suspension mods discussed above. 2-piece rotors would save weight, but certainly cost more (but Honda is going that route on the Type R Civic). Chapman's "adding lightness" would be minor here - some insulation, maybe eliminating the "seat" elements in the +2 seats. They're not going to change elements like body panels or glass.
  • Styling. They could aim for more differential in the front end than recent images have shown - maybe a more Supra-looking front like some early renderings showed (or the digital image below using the original 86). It looks like the lower sills are a separate bolt-on part; they could go for plastic bits there with a different shape. Anything more than working with the plastic bits gets back to costing too much.


The practical limit is likely to be the pricing of the 2.0 Supra. Toyota really won't want the 86 to get too close in price to the bottom of the Supra range.
 
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