[Ritter]

4. Get rid of stupid latchless turn signals.

They digitally latch and there's a detent between lane change and turn; cancel by a blip the opposite direction, not going past the turn detent. Just use finesse and stop being a bus driver, lol.

5. Auto locking doors... not every one lives in the sticks.

Mommy!

8. Since cup holder is only place to pull the door closed, make inside nicer on the fingers

 

[CanyonDriver]

Bonus. Program the the ECU for 87 octane and E85.

 

[KahnBB6]

--Longitudinally mounted G16E-GTS 1.6L turbo I-3 engine. Hybrid if absolutely necessary to meet emissions and fuel economy needs... but use those patents for a manual transmission bolted to a hybrid system.
--Keep the TL70 6-speed manual transmission and strengthen it internally to handle torque from the turbo
--Take the current and outgoing generation Lexus IS RWD chassis, modify the hell out of it to make a new lightweight 2+2 two-door coupe
--Ditch the Lexus IS sunroof. Keep it a solid roof vehicle. Aluminum roof is perfect.
--Stiffness at least as strong as the 2nd generation or better.
--Try very hard to make the styling as beautiful as the 2nd generation car is.
--Continue to offer fun colors
--Tune the suspension to handle sharply and with liveliness just like the 2nd generation (basically un-Lexus the Lexus chassis).
--Keep the Torsen T2 LSD
--Keep the seating and vehicle height low just like this 2nd generation
--Keep it at 3000lbs maximum and however much less can be achieved
--Same power to weight ratio, better or significantly better than the 2nd gen with the 240-ish horsepower FA24D. If the new car weighs 3,000lbs for example... make it 300-330hp in stock tune.
--Oil temperature, oil pressure and water temperature gauges with actual numbers in the main instrument cluster display screen without having to constantly switch in and out of Track Mode just to see what the temperatures and pressure readings are.
--In the owner's manual emphasize an oil viscosity and weight that will actually protect the engine... or at least make it abundantly clear in the manual text that if some one actually drives their sportscar like a sportscar they need to use the appropriate engine oil that will actually protect the engine of said sportscar.

Finally, track test the prototypes on very grippy race tires on actual racetracks and work out any potential kinks (such as, for instance, any potential oiling system design issue that could affect significant oil pressure drops) with the new engine.

And... keep the thing engaging, driver oriented and fun to drive above all else.

 

[Zeke]

They digitally latch and there's a detent between lane change and turn; cancel by a blip the opposite direction, not going past the turn detent. Just use finesse and stop being a bus driver, lol.

Mommy!

Damnit, I'm not playing favorites, but best post I've seen here to date.

The grill on this mockup in the original post is horrid. Leave the gaping maws to BMW

 

[CanyonDriver]

--Longitudinally mounted G16E-GTS 1.6L turbo I-3 engine. Hybrid if absolutely necessary to meet emissions and fuel economy needs... but use those patents for a manual transmission bolted to a hybrid system.
--Keep the TL70 6-speed manual transmission and strengthen it internally to handle torque from the turbo
--Take the current and outgoing generation Lexus IS RWD chassis, modify the hell out of it to make a new lightweight 2+2 two-door coupe
--Ditch the Lexus IS sunroof. Keep it a solid roof vehicle. Aluminum roof is perfect.
--Stiffness at least as strong as the 2nd generation or better.
--Try very hard to make the styling as beautiful as the 2nd generation car is.
--Continue to offer fun colors
--Tune the suspension to handle sharply and with liveliness just like the 2nd generation (basically un-Lexus the Lexus chassis).
--Keep the Torsen T2 LSD
--Keep the seating and vehicle height low just like this 2nd generation
--Keep it at 3000lbs maximum and however much less can be achieved
--Same power to weight ratio, better or significantly better than the 2nd gen with the 240-ish horsepower FA24D. If the new car weighs 3,000lbs for example... make it 300-330hp in stock tune.
--Oil temperature, oil pressure and water temperature gauges with actual numbers in the main instrument cluster display screen without having to constantly switch in and out of Track Mode just to see what the temperatures and pressure readings are.
--In the owner's manual emphasize an oil viscosity and weight that will actually protect the engine... or at least make it abundantly clear in the manual text that if some one actually drives their sportscar like a sportscar they need to use the appropriate engine oil that will actually protect the engine of said sportscar.

Finally, track test the prototypes on very grippy race tires on actual racetracks and work out any potential kinks (such as, for instance, any potential oiling system design issue that could affect significant oil pressure drops) with the new engine.

And... keep the thing engaging, driver oriented and fun to drive above all else.

This is like a $50,000 car with solid sales volumes expectation. This is 3rd gen GRZ stuff.

If the MR2 comes to the US, I'm just getting that instead.

 

[KahnBB6]

This is like a $50,000 car with solid sales volumes expectation. This is 3rd gen GRZ stuff.

I definitely think the 3rd gen will go up in price but It shouldn't end up being $50k USD. And pretty much everything I listed seems to be what Toyota & GR are doing with it anyway or are strongly expected to be doing with it.

Even if some of the 2nd gen chassis have been fitted with G16E swaps for testing it doesn't guarantee that combination can actually be sold and still pass crash testing requirements.

If Toyota uses the G16E engine it's expected they would use their own chassis design. The current and soon to be replaced Lexus IS chassis is the smallest RWD architecture they have to start modifying and drastically changing.

 

[CanyonDriver]

I definitely think the 3rd gen will go up in price but It shouldn't end up being $50k USD. And pretty much everything I listed seems to be what Toyota & GR are doing with it anyway or are strongly expected to be doing with it.

Even if some of the 2nd gen chassis have been fitted with G16E swaps for testing it doesn't guarantee that combination can actually be sold and still pass crash testing requirements.

If Toyota uses the G16E engine it's expected they would use their own chassis design. The current and soon to be replaced Lexus IS chassis is the smallest RWD architecture they have to start modifying and drastically changing.

So basically, use a chassis that wasn't built for light weight, cut it, strengthen it to Porsche 911 hardtop level, and keep it basically the same relative weight. This is the most expensive part. It's a change of materials as well, and I'm not even sure a full aluminum chassis can meet the strength requirement assuming it even meets the weight requirement.

GR Corolla engine, fine. Hybrid if necessary... basically just use the same 4 cylinder motor/turbo/hybrid in the Century, new Tacoma, new Grand Highlander, etc. It's going to be real tough to keep this all under 3,000lbs now.

Should basically use the GR Corolla 6MT transmission, just 2WD. Hopefully that's strong enough to deal with the electric motor torque and/or tune the electric motor for limited torque fill under acceleration without blowing up the transmission.

Retune suspension again to make it sharper... I have a feeling this won't happen for part longevity reasons.

We're driving a 2nd gen, one that's already a Subiyota collab, similar chassis and suspension to the first gen, displacement change to the engine, and not really too much else on the manual, suspension settings, etc, and that still raises the price to relatively $27,000 US in base trim, only to have basically the same car now start +$3,000 for the 2024 models.

It's the change in chassis, engine, and transmission altogether that had me call it a 3rd gen.

 

[Zeke]

I think the larger concern than crash testing is efficiency standards + EV requirements -- which I'm not predicting along any timeframe.

 

[KahnBB6]

So basically, use a chassis that wasn't built for light weight, cut it, strengthen it to Porsche 911 hardtop level, and keep it basically the same relative weight. This is the most expensive part. It's a change of materials as well, and I'm not even sure a full aluminum chassis can meet the strength requirement assuming it even meets the weight requirement.

GR Corolla engine, fine. Hybrid if necessary... basically just use the same 4 cylinder motor/turbo/hybrid in the Century, new Tacoma, new Grand Highlander, etc. It's going to be real tough to keep this all under 3,000lbs now.

Should basically use the GR Corolla 6MT transmission, just 2WD. Hopefully that's strong enough to deal with the electric motor torque and/or tune the electric motor for limited torque fill under acceleration without blowing up the transmission.

Retune suspension again to make it sharper... I have a feeling this won't happen for part longevity reasons.

We're driving a 2nd gen, one that's already a Subiyota collab, similar chassis and suspension to the first gen, displacement change to the engine, and not really too much else on the manual, suspension settings, etc, and that still raises the price to relatively $27,000 US in base trim, only to have basically the same car now start +$3,000 for the 2024 models.

It's the change in chassis, engine, and transmission altogether that had me call it a 3rd gen.

So far that seems to be the case, yes. BestCar seems to think so. But time will tell if this proves to be true or not about Toyota re-engineering an existing Lexus RWD chassis for a small 2+2 RWD coupe.

Also that soon to be outgoing Lexus IS chassis uses the same rear differential that the GR86/BRZ uses.

If they can keep the weight down, change the upper structure, change the wheelbase and get as many of the unnecessary and heavy luxury features out of it as possible and still keep the weight at no more than 3,000lbs with a hybrid system installed... I'll be very impressed. And yes, it'll certainly be considered a 3rd generation 86.

And I hope they can achieve all of that. Would it not be even more expensive for Toyota to design a totally new small RWD chassis with very limited other applications or no other applications?

Then again maybe since Lexus will not be using that IS chassis any longer going forward the extent to which it will be re-used and re-engineered is probably just for the GR engineers to get out of it what they can to save what they can on total development costs. Supposedly using the newer TNGA RWD architecture was ruled out since it was far too big to ever get down to an appropriate size and weight comparable to the GT86/GR86.

....

An exception to your breakdown is that you can't use the GR Yaris/Corolla 6MT transmission in a longitudinal RWD application. Your guess is as good as mine as to which transmission will be used for the manual option. Either GR works with Aisin to beef up their AZ6/TL70 6-speed manual box to handle extra turbo torque and extra electric motor torque or they go with something else.

For choosing and integrating the automatic option I think the engineers will have a much easier time of it.

The original Aisin AZ6 transmission design was used in at least one turbo application: the 1999-2002 Nissan S15 Silvia Spec R. The TL70 was redesigned based off of that.

Were we (and Aisin) wrong about the BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 manual transmission? Or is Scion?

Almost 2½ months ago, Kaizen Factor indulged in some of our much-loved Informed Speculation and attempted to delve into the specifics of The BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 transmissions and driveline. No soone…

kaizenfactor.wordpress.com

So perhaps it's possible that a further redesign of that same gearbox will be undertaken and then bolted to the longitudinal G16E-GTS turbo engine.

 

[KahnBB6]

I think the larger concern than crash testing is efficiency standards + EV requirements -- which I'm not predicting along any timeframe.

Apparently it's both. Different market emissions and fuel economy standards will make the current FA24D as-is impossible to certify in a couple of years (including in Japan). And then the current chassis as-is will have some further issues with upcoming crash and safety certification in certain markets.

Almost anything can be made to comply with enough money thrown at extensive redesign but its a question of whether or not Toyota and Subaru see eye to eye as to how to approach the issues as to how to give the model a 3rd generation.

At this point I think it's pretty expected that a longitudinally mounted (turned 90 degrees) G16E-GTS engine with an integrated hybrid system is what will solve the emissions and fuel economy issues facing a 3rd gen model.

 

[BlitzPig]

In my estimation, Toyota will be going it alone on the next iteration of this vehicle, simply based on the way Subaru is placing themselves in the market. The BRZ is so un-Subaru. It's nothing like anything else in their lineup, it absolutely doesn't fit Subaru's current image as portrayed in their advertising. Same goes for the WRX which is being wound down to obscurity in the North American market.
If Toyota launches a new MR2, there will be no need for the GR86 in their lineup, and hence the BRZ will have no co-developed platform, which will free up Subaru to continue on the path of becoming the Volvo 140/240 of this generation.

 

[Zeke]

If we're wagering money on it I'd bet no seriously redesigned third generation. Maybe they use the name(s) in the future but it won't be <3000 lbs, rwd, two door coupe, etc.

Edit: I think the comparison to the emissions throttling of the '70s might be very instructive for preparing for wherever we go next as far as ICE, hybrid, EVs are concerned.

 

[CanyonDriver]

So far that seems to be the case, yes. BestCar seems to think so. But time will tell if this proves to be true or not about Toyota re-engineering an existing Lexus RWD chassis for a small 2+2 RWD coupe.

Also that soon to be outgoing Lexus IS chassis uses the same rear differential that the GR86/BRZ uses.

If they can keep the weight down, change the upper structure, change the wheelbase and get as many of the unnecessary and heavy luxury features out of it as possible and still keep the weight at no more than 3,000lbs with a hybrid system installed... I'll be very impressed. And yes, it'll certainly be considered a 3rd generation 86.

And I hope they can achieve all of that. Would it not be even more expensive for Toyota to design a totally new small RWD chassis with very limited other applications or no other applications?

Then again maybe since Lexus will not be using that IS chassis any longer going forward the extent to which it will be re-used and re-engineered is probably just for the GR engineers to get out of it what they can to save what they can on total development costs. Supposedly using the newer TNGA RWD architecture was ruled out since it was far too big to ever get down to an appropriate size and weight comparable to the GT86/GR86.

....

An exception to your breakdown is that you can't use the GR Yaris/Corolla 6MT transmission in a longitudinal RWD application. Your guess is as good as mine as to which transmission will be used for the manual option. Either GR works with Aisin to beef up their AZ6/TL70 6-speed manual box to handle extra turbo torque and extra electric motor torque or they go with something else.

For choosing and integrating the automatic option I think the engineers will have a much easier time of it.

The original Aisin AZ6 transmission design was used in at least one turbo application: the 1999-2002 Nissan S15 Silvia Spec R. The TL70 was redesigned based off of that.

Were we (and Aisin) wrong about the BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 manual transmission? Or is Scion?

Almost 2½ months ago, Kaizen Factor indulged in some of our much-loved Informed Speculation and attempted to delve into the specifics of The BRZ / FR-S / GT 86 transmissions and driveline. No soone…

kaizenfactor.wordpress.com

So perhaps it's possible that a further redesign of that same gearbox will be undertaken and then bolted to the longitudinal G16E-GTS turbo engine.

Automatic should be immediately transferrable with the Turbo/4/hybrid setup straight from the Tacoma/Highlander+ truck line.

I just think it's a lot to ask chassis-wise. More like 3400lbs+ with the turbo, hybrid, strengthened chassis. It's still in Lotus Emira weight territory but not the lightweight it is now. This is the part I find unrealistic. I've even been told by an MR2 fabricator/shop owner that if he had a GR, chassis rigidity is not the first direction he'd go because the chassis is already so stiff.

Even if this car gets built, there are so many used Cayman's that'll be more affordable, meet the requirements, and the cost savings will cover for the future maintenance.

If we're going the hybrid route, I'd rather use a capacitor type EV system for immediate charge and discharge and use as torque-fill than any real benefit to pure EV range. Way less weight requirement.

 

[Ritter]

If we're wagering money on it I'd bet no seriously redesigned third generation. Maybe they use the name(s) in the future but it won't be <3000 lbs, rwd, two door coupe, etc.

Edit: I think the comparison to the emissions throttling of the '70s might be very instructive for preparing for wherever we go next as far as ICE, hybrid, EVs are concerned.

A new Malaise Era.

 

[Grenade Man]

400 lbs. lighter, 10" shorter wheelbase, no back seat, a more pronounced bubble-top fastback roofline that drops more steeply and doesn't blend straight into the trunk. More like this:

I’m on board with shorter wheelbase, lighter weight, no back seat. Also give me a Toyota engine. Also like to see dual A-arm suspension with adjustability. Ditch the oddball 215 tires for the ultra common 225. Finally, offer three trims-base, performance and luxury.

 

[Induced Oversteer]

I’m on board with shorter wheelbase, lighter weight, no back seat. Also give me a Toyota engine. Also like to see dual A-arm suspension with adjustability. Ditch the oddball 215 tires for the ultra common 225. Finally, offer three trims-base, performance and luxury.

I don’t think you’re ever gonna see this car lighter. The Toyota engine better not mess with the hood line and/or the CoG.

also don’t see the commercial motive for a third trim…..they currently sell all the units they build (many with mark ups that keep dealers happy)

 

[Zeke]

Even if this car gets built, there are so many used Cayman's that'll be more affordable, meet the requirements, and the cost savings will cover for the future maintenance.

Where are they all hiding? 😮‍💨 not an exhaustive search but I didn't find much keeping the budget below, oh let's say $30k. Poor vehicle sales post great recession really seems to have shrunk the market of what's out there. Can't find reliable sales figures offhand but they dropped precipitously after the first couple years.

 

[BlitzPig]

A new Malaise Era.

Indeed. I don't care how fast an EV accelerates, it's still a soulless, 4000lb. pig of a car that has about as much charisma as the Nissan Leaf (or any of them really).

 

[Zeke]

They'll probably get better... Someday

 

[Induced Oversteer]

Where are they all hiding? 😮‍💨 not an exhaustive search but I didn't find much keeping the budget below, oh let's say $30k. Poor vehicle sales post great recession really seems to have shrunk the market of what's out there. Can't find reliable sales figures offhand but they dropped precipitously after the first couple years.

I don’t think there are many. I just sold a 981 boxster and there weren’t many comps to look at. I saw a comparable one for $33k with a salvaged title. Likely more like 40-45k if you want a cayman (particularly an S) in good nick