That's funny!
Manual vs Automatic Transmission
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That's funny!
I have a 700hp Supra in manual, so I get the benefits and joy of owning a manual car. We also have a manual ND MX5, and AT A91-CF and GR86. People gonna be mad no matter what ya do in life, just gotta make sure you make decisions for yourself vs others lol.
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I’m not sure what argumentative fallacy this is, but an analogous version would be:
“I don’t like strawberry ice cream, but I do like chocolate.”
“Oh, my. Well, you might as well just go eat dog poop because strawberry ice cream is the only kind worth eating. Personally, I’d Hoover a plate of dog poop before I would ingest one spoonful of chocolate ice cream.”
It’s a flawed argument.
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That is the ONLY reason to get a manual!
btw, no hatred of automatics. Our other car is a hybrid automatic with radar cruise and it is great for what it does. 48 Mpg in the summer, 42 in winter. And quiet and comfortable with a great stereo. And even when I am going fast, the family does not complain because the car is so quiet And they don’t even realize it. And I do love that car.
That said, I really, really LOVE the GR86 manual for reasons you said - it is so much fun rowing the gear, the handling (latter in auto as well of course).
Technically, almost all modern high tech automatics are better performing, faster and more economical than their manual equivalents. For example, Porsche PDKs are by all accounts amazing, and much faster than the manuals but engagement is what you get with manuals.
I don’t make it as an objective argument, only that it’s my personal view for my own uses.
As a person, I am not a Swiss Army knife kinda guy. I would almost always prefer a more specialized tool that is really really good at its intended use and not as good at others vs something that is decent at a larger number of things.
For context, if I want an easy commuter - EVs are the easiest commuter you’re ever going to find. Silent, shiftless, clean - whatever. If I want something sporty I am going to buy the absolute most involved, least practical thing that can fit my needs. For me that was the BRZ. I don’t fit in a Miata, I already own motorcycles (as we’ve talked plenty on) so I basically wanted a motorcycle with a roof and a trunk. For my purposes, an automatic absolutely does make it worse at what the car is best at. You absolutely gain ease of use and so on with it which makes it a better all rounder. That just isn’t what I wanted.
imo there is a future for manual ICE vehicles, due largely to the fact that the practical choice will just become an EV. Buying an ICE will become an impractical, “fun” decision and a manual transmission is the most mechanical way to interact with the intentionally mechanical thing. Automatic ICE vehicles (while EVs have their weaknesses) are so experentially similar to EVs that I don’t see enough of a difference to justify the ICE vs EV.
To use the ice cream analogy, I want chocolate OR I want strawberry. I don’t want Neapolitan. I don’t consider EVs as dog poop, they’re just another tool to motivate a box we call a car. They have strengths and weaknesses just like every technology.
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I always wonder why MT owners get so exercised about someone choosing the AT, yet the reverse isn’t the case. AT owners just live and let live and don’t feel the need to proselytize the AT and denigrate the MT. However, the gauntlet has been thrown down, so I will in this post denigrate the MT.
Choosing the AT does not mean one is seeking “a shiftless experience” that isolates or removes them from the task of managing the engine under sport driving conditions. Far from it. Driving a sport automatic, one retains the ability to manage engine rpm and output. It’s just done with a flick of the wrist on the shifter or a tap of the fingers on a paddle, instead of with foot and hand working balky mechanical linkages. There are numerous threads & posts on this forum about poor clutch engagement / pedal feel, annoying clunk going into first, noise in neutral, noise from throwout bearing, crunchy shifts into second, etc. The manual has short ratios and short rear gearing so MT aficionados don’t get an identity crisis if it’s not quicker to 60 mph than the AT. Even with the gearing crutch, it stills requires clutch-roasting launches to beat the AT. And it comes at the cost of annoyingly high rpm on the highway and worse fuel economy.
Driving a sport automatic, when the fun’s all over, switch back to Drive, grab your Big Gulp, and head home on the interstate with lower cruising rpm, better fuel economy, and adaptive cruise with selectable acceleration profiles.
If someone wants to say the GR86/BRZ with 6AT isn’t a sports car? OK, students, fill in the ovals completely with a #2 lead pencil until time is called, then set down your pencil and turn your paper over on the desk.
This car is not best at being a manual. The manual is pretty “meh” as manuals go. It’s not best at having a high-strung engine that needs a manual to get the best out of it.
It’s best at being a cheap 2800 lb. car with great chassis dynamics. It’s best at having a tractor-like engine with a fat torque curve that isn’t picky about gear selection. It’s actually an engine ideally suited to a sport automatic.
Choosing the AT does not mean one is seeking “a shiftless experience” that isolates or removes them from the task of managing the engine under sport driving conditions. Far from it. Driving a sport automatic, one retains the ability to manage engine rpm and output. It’s just done with a flick of the wrist on the shifter or a tap of the fingers on a paddle, instead of with foot and hand working balky mechanical linkages. There are numerous threads & posts on this forum about poor clutch engagement / pedal feel, annoying clunk going into first, noise in neutral, noise from throwout bearing, crunchy shifts into second, etc. The manual has short ratios and short rear gearing so MT aficionados don’t get an identity crisis if it’s not quicker to 60 mph than the AT. Even with the gearing crutch, it stills requires clutch-roasting launches to beat the AT. And it comes at the cost of annoyingly high rpm on the highway and worse fuel economy.
Driving a sport automatic, when the fun’s all over, switch back to Drive, grab your Big Gulp, and head home on the interstate with lower cruising rpm, better fuel economy, and adaptive cruise with selectable acceleration profiles.
If someone wants to say the GR86/BRZ with 6AT isn’t a sports car? OK, students, fill in the ovals completely with a #2 lead pencil until time is called, then set down your pencil and turn your paper over on the desk.
I don’t see it in such a binary fashion. “Either I’m marrying peak Cindy Crawford or I’m celibate for life.”
This car is not best at being a manual. The manual is pretty “meh” as manuals go. It’s not best at having a high-strung engine that needs a manual to get the best out of it.
It’s best at being a cheap 2800 lb. car with great chassis dynamics. It’s best at having a tractor-like engine with a fat torque curve that isn’t picky about gear selection. It’s actually an engine ideally suited to a sport automatic.
I’m surprised you can’t perceive a significant experiential difference between these power trains in sports car applications under sport driving conditions. With sport automatic ICE there’s substantial auditory experience coupled with (if you so choose) engine rpm management experience. Both are missing with EV.
You sound mad😂 relax, it's not that deep
I respect your perspective - I don’t find our cars to sound particularly good, nor do I find engine noise to be an objectively “good” thing for a commuter car. So the noise component is irrelevant.
IMO if I’m going to go through the hassle of shifting it manually I’d rather just an actual manual box vs paddle shifters. The paddle shifters excel as the “I am usually driving chill but I like the option to get spicy” vs the “I beat the shit out of this thing like I stole it 24/7”. Most good sport automatics imo are best if you set whatever “mode” you want and then leave them alone. I kinda go back to this opinion from Porsche PDKs (which I absolutely f***ing despise for other reasons I won’t list here), the paddles are fine and they work well but the car already is basically going to shift perfectly if you’re in track mode and going all out on it, so there’s really no point.
In a commuter car, EVs provide a very similar experience to most auto ICE cars. I am not arguing that nobody should ever buy an auto, only my rationale that for my intents and purposes it would have been a poor choice. For a lot of people, this is basically the sportiest thing they can reasonably daily. It’s very sensible that demand for the manual would be very high as a result.
I’d also argue that the twins have a pretty good manual box. The Miata and your Fiata offer manual boxes that are better. An Si is MAYBE slightly better. But this manual is heaps better in terms of engagement than current gen mustangs, chargers and I’d say on par in terms of feel with the tremecs in Camaros (although different, I’d argue equally good). I prefer it to most bmw boxes I’ve rowed as well. It’s not world class but it is absolutely a solid B+ box.
Now that is an interesting perspective lol. I think they sound pretty decent, albeit nothing amazing, but that's due to a good combo of intake and exhaust on my car. I also feel those sounds/noises to be a good thing regardless of commuting or having fun pounding corners.
You couldn't pay me to own an EV other than as a secondary vehicle purely for novelty or just to haul kids around or something lol
That’s basically my argument. I think EVs are the best option as far as an appliance goes, and if you want the toy then you’d get a manual.
personally my ideal (reasonable) garage would look something like
BRZ
BMW 850CSi (although an e34 M5 would work too)
Harley FXSTS (this was my grandfather’s before it became mine and I adore it)
Toyota Tacoma to tow when needed
Last slot would be a rotating sportbike - rotating for novelty
I really need to sell my E46 at this point lmao. But I don’t personally like EVs, although I acknowledge full well that they excel in many practical aspects. I was very “EVs suck” until I drove some non-Teslas. Tesla does the tech part of EV well, not so much the car part. The BMW i4 is actually an objectively decent car that isn’t made to fisher price standards a la Elon’s cars.
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personally, I prefer manuals if there's an option most of the times. But also have chosen auto sometimes. Just recently chose PDK over manual simply because I wanted to feel the 6k rpm dump launch control on the 4 liter cayman - and when I experienced that first time, PDK became the only auto that I might choose over manual -but that's just me.
The Supra i had was an auto (at the time no manual option) but still loved it. if I were buying the supra now, i'd of course go with the manual.
I considered getting my Taco as a manual, but hated the idea of not being able to heal / toe downshift a manual because truck pedal placements aren't meant for that.
Other sports / sporty cars I've had were manuals (mk7.5 GTI / mk4 GLI / 1st gen IS300) and love them / miss them - used to have a BRZ until recently that I miss terribly, hence why I'm in the market for a manual GR86 now.
I don't care if someone buys a manual as an individual - it's their choice. some people don't know how to drive stick and that's fine. I personally had to force my situation to have a chance to learn - first car was a shtbox honda my parents got me as my first car that was auto, and didn't have money until after college to pick my own car. so I had my friends teach me and practice on their cars here and there until i bought my own. Some people buy cars for looks or how they look in it, and that's fine.
but at a larger scale of the market, it is sad as an enthusiast that there are fewer and fewer manual versions of cars available new or used since more and more people buy auto sports cars.
The Supra i had was an auto (at the time no manual option) but still loved it. if I were buying the supra now, i'd of course go with the manual.
I considered getting my Taco as a manual, but hated the idea of not being able to heal / toe downshift a manual because truck pedal placements aren't meant for that.
Other sports / sporty cars I've had were manuals (mk7.5 GTI / mk4 GLI / 1st gen IS300) and love them / miss them - used to have a BRZ until recently that I miss terribly, hence why I'm in the market for a manual GR86 now.
I don't care if someone buys a manual as an individual - it's their choice. some people don't know how to drive stick and that's fine. I personally had to force my situation to have a chance to learn - first car was a shtbox honda my parents got me as my first car that was auto, and didn't have money until after college to pick my own car. so I had my friends teach me and practice on their cars here and there until i bought my own. Some people buy cars for looks or how they look in it, and that's fine.
but at a larger scale of the market, it is sad as an enthusiast that there are fewer and fewer manual versions of cars available new or used since more and more people buy auto sports cars.
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It was a 1981 stock corvette with a 4 speed trans and an odometer that only went to 80. I had to back off when the steering became " light ". I was racing a guy on a bike and flagged him down to ask how fast we were going when felt unsafe. He said just under 135. You don't really think I meant I was pulling a wheel stand at 135 ? I would like a ride in a vette like that ! Too bad you quit reading
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Not to worry...shame is not part of my game. !
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Dont tell the rest in here but my 21 Tacoma 4x4 is a stick...my wife hates it
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You better go tell Lamborghini, McLaren, and most other supercar builders the news because they don't seem to agree with you.
That’s a simple one, most of the people that purchase said cars aren’t enthusiasts. They’re just filthy rich.
Also, the manual versions of those cars command FAR more money on the used market, further proving their desirability.
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Truth is spoken here. Early Corvettes were known for their poor aerodynamics, particularly getting very light in the front at speed. The '63 to '67 models (C2) in particular were HORRIBLE in the aero department. Remember, the early cars were styled, not engineered. The Corvette started to become the true sports car it was meant to be with the C4, and finally made the breakthrough to a true thoroughbred with the C5. Before this they were just fancy looking hot rods with IRS.
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