[Mario0617]

Personally, I’ve never driven an AT that does what I want it to do all the time. Even Porsche PDKs piss me off because they won’t hold gear when I want them to, won’t kick down every time when I want them to and so on. And those are really good ATs.

Then again, sometimes I don’t put myself in the gear I want to be in - but then I can blame myself LOL. If I wanted something easier to live with though, I would have bought the EV Mini I was considering. Imo a “shiftless”experience most plays to the strength of EVs as a powertrain. If I’m buying an ICE vehicle at this point, I’m doing so consciously buying a mechanical thing. So a manual accentuates that.

 

[Mario0617]

I’m not sure what argumentative fallacy this is, but an analogous version would be:

“I don’t like strawberry ice cream, but I do like chocolate.”

“Oh, my. Well, you might as well just go eat dog poop because strawberry ice cream is the only kind worth eating. Personally, I’d Hoover a plate of dog poop before I would ingest one spoonful of chocolate ice cream.”

It’s a flawed argument.

I don’t make it as an objective argument, only that it’s my personal view for my own uses.

As a person, I am not a Swiss Army knife kinda guy. I would almost always prefer a more specialized tool that is really really good at its intended use and not as good at others vs something that is decent at a larger number of things.

For context, if I want an easy commuter - EVs are the easiest commuter you’re ever going to find. Silent, shiftless, clean - whatever. If I want something sporty I am going to buy the absolute most involved, least practical thing that can fit my needs. For me that was the BRZ. I don’t fit in a Miata, I already own motorcycles (as we’ve talked plenty on) so I basically wanted a motorcycle with a roof and a trunk. For my purposes, an automatic absolutely does make it worse at what the car is best at. You absolutely gain ease of use and so on with it which makes it a better all rounder. That just isn’t what I wanted.

imo there is a future for manual ICE vehicles, due largely to the fact that the practical choice will just become an EV. Buying an ICE will become an impractical, “fun” decision and a manual transmission is the most mechanical way to interact with the intentionally mechanical thing. Automatic ICE vehicles (while EVs have their weaknesses) are so experentially similar to EVs that I don’t see enough of a difference to justify the ICE vs EV.

To use the ice cream analogy, I want chocolate OR I want strawberry. I don’t want Neapolitan. I don’t consider EVs as dog poop, they’re just another tool to motivate a box we call a car. They have strengths and weaknesses just like every technology.

 

[Mario0617]

I always wonder why MT owners get so exercised about someone choosing the AT, yet the reverse isn’t the case. AT owners just live and let live and don’t feel the need to proselytize the AT and denigrate the MT. However, the gauntlet has been thrown down, so I will in this post denigrate the MT.

Choosing the AT does not mean one is seeking “a shiftless experience” that isolates or removes them from the task of managing the engine under sport driving conditions. Far from it. Driving a sport automatic, one retains the ability to manage engine rpm and output. It’s just done with a flick of the wrist on the shifter or a tap of the fingers on a paddle, instead of with foot and hand working balky mechanical linkages. There are numerous threads & posts on this forum about poor clutch engagement / pedal feel, annoying clunk going into first, noise in neutral, noise from throwout bearing, crunchy shifts into second, etc. The manual has short ratios and short rear gearing so MT aficionados don’t get an identity crisis if it’s not quicker to 60 mph than the AT. Even with the gearing crutch, it stills requires clutch-roasting launches to beat the AT. And it comes at the cost of annoyingly high rpm on the highway and worse fuel economy.

Driving a sport automatic, when the fun’s all over, switch back to Drive, grab your Big Gulp, and head home on the interstate with lower cruising rpm, better fuel economy, and adaptive cruise with selectable acceleration profiles.

If someone wants to say the GR86/BRZ with 6AT isn’t a sports car? OK, students, fill in the ovals completely with a #2 lead pencil until time is called, then set down your pencil and turn your paper over on the desk.

I don’t see it in such a binary fashion. “Either I’m marrying peak Cindy Crawford or I’m celibate for life.”

This car is not best at being a manual. The manual is pretty “meh” as manuals go. It’s not best at having a high-strung engine that needs a manual to get the best out of it.

It’s best at being a cheap 2800 lb. car with great chassis dynamics. It’s best at having a tractor-like engine with a fat torque curve that isn’t picky about gear selection. It’s actually an engine ideally suited to a sport automatic.


I’m surprised you can’t perceive a significant experiential difference between these power trains in sports car applications under sport driving conditions. With sport automatic ICE there’s substantial auditory experience coupled with (if you so choose) engine rpm management experience. Both are missing with EV.

I respect your perspective - I don’t find our cars to sound particularly good, nor do I find engine noise to be an objectively “good” thing for a commuter car. So the noise component is irrelevant.

IMO if I’m going to go through the hassle of shifting it manually I’d rather just an actual manual box vs paddle shifters. The paddle shifters excel as the “I am usually driving chill but I like the option to get spicy” vs the “I beat the shit out of this thing like I stole it 24/7”. Most good sport automatics imo are best if you set whatever “mode” you want and then leave them alone. I kinda go back to this opinion from Porsche PDKs (which I absolutely f***ing despise for other reasons I won’t list here), the paddles are fine and they work well but the car already is basically going to shift perfectly if you’re in track mode and going all out on it, so there’s really no point.

In a commuter car, EVs provide a very similar experience to most auto ICE cars. I am not arguing that nobody should ever buy an auto, only my rationale that for my intents and purposes it would have been a poor choice. For a lot of people, this is basically the sportiest thing they can reasonably daily. It’s very sensible that demand for the manual would be very high as a result.

I’d also argue that the twins have a pretty good manual box. The Miata and your Fiata offer manual boxes that are better. An Si is MAYBE slightly better. But this manual is heaps better in terms of engagement than current gen mustangs, chargers and I’d say on par in terms of feel with the tremecs in Camaros (although different, I’d argue equally good). I prefer it to most bmw boxes I’ve rowed as well. It’s not world class but it is absolutely a solid B+ box.

 

[Mario0617]

Now that is an interesting perspective lol. I think they sound pretty decent, albeit nothing amazing, but that's due to a good combo of intake and exhaust on my car. I also feel those sounds/noises to be a good thing regardless of commuting or having fun pounding corners.

You couldn't pay me to own an EV other than as a secondary vehicle purely for novelty or just to haul kids around or something lol

That’s basically my argument. I think EVs are the best option as far as an appliance goes, and if you want the toy then you’d get a manual.

personally my ideal (reasonable) garage would look something like
BRZ
BMW 850CSi (although an e34 M5 would work too)
Harley FXSTS (this was my grandfather’s before it became mine and I adore it)
Toyota Tacoma to tow when needed
Last slot would be a rotating sportbike - rotating for novelty

I really need to sell my E46 at this point lmao. But I don’t personally like EVs, although I acknowledge full well that they excel in many practical aspects. I was very “EVs suck” until I drove some non-Teslas. Tesla does the tech part of EV well, not so much the car part. The BMW i4 is actually an objectively decent car that isn’t made to fisher price standards a la Elon’s cars.

 

[Mario0617]

I don’t know what’s worse.

transmission threads or RTV threads?

 

[Mario0617]

You are completely backwards

Automatic Transmission owners do not go into MT threads and preach about the benefits of automatic transmissions while simultaneously insulting manual transmission buyers

That is a thing specific some MT owners

I’m not a petty person but sometimes I wish the passive aggressive beta males that troll AT threads would get a crushed vertebra or blown out ACL so they would have to give up the one thing they seem to think mostly identifies them as being masculine – driving an MT car

I would describe someone wishing significant pain and suffering as well as disability on someone to “teach them a lesson” as quite petty. But maybe I’m just a snowflake or something 🤷

 

[Mario0617]

So by your logic, I'm a peaceful person, thanks, now your getting it.

You did literally say you’ve knocked people out for saying things you found offensive… I wouldn’t characterize that as defending yourself or other, for the record. Where I’m from everybody talks mad shit, but if you swing you’re probably getting shot. Not that that’s the right way to do it either, just saying that kind of justification isn’t sufficient for a lot of people.

 

[Mario0617]

I wo

"You did literally say you’ve knocked people out for saying things you found offensive…"

I didn't say that, I said "I have knocked a MFer out for running his mouth too much"

Saying something offensive and running your mouth too much are 2 completly different things

Sometime people get too out of pocket and heve to be put in thier place.

I have done it to and had it done to me.


"but if you swing you’re probably getting shot"

We must be from different generations

When I as a teen you could get into a fight and kick someone's ass or get your ass kicked and that would be the end of it

We never thought about grabbing the gun off the rifle rack and shooting person because we weren't afraid of a little pain or the embasament of getting your ass kicked

Id say it’s probably more regional and cultural. I grew up in Miami, there’s a cultural blend of Cuban and northeastern going on. And Florida is yolo about guns. Everybody is a raging asshole to each other 24/7 - if anyone is actually nice to you it’s because they’re trying to screw you.

So if you swing on every person that is an asshole to you, you’d just be swinging nonstop. That whole argument just doesn’t work there. And if you pick a fight with someone, you bet your ass they’re gonna finish it - and if it means putting you in a body bag so be it.

 

[Mario0617]

"You did literally say you’ve knocked people out for saying things you found offensive…"

I didn't say that, I said "I have knocked a MFer out for running his mouth too much"

Saying something offensive and running your mouth too much are 2 completly different things

Sometime people get too out of pocket and heve to be put in thier place.

I have done it to and had it done to me.


"but if you swing you’re probably getting shot"

We must be from different generations

When I as a teen you could get into a fight and kick someone's ass or get your ass kicked and that would be the end of it

We never thought about grabbing the gun off the rifle rack and shooting person because we weren't afraid of a little pain or the embasament of getting your ass kicked

Also “running their mouth” is just a tough guy way of saying that you found what they said offensive so you punched them. I’m not even saying that you’re objectively wrong, only that your justification does by nature make you a violent person to a lot of people. I’d argue most people.

 

[Mario0617]

I missed the old days when we just have TB talking about oil. Now with new buyers coming in, some of them seem like the "it's either my way or the highway" type of folks. Forum has changed.

It’s just a phase. We’ll all go back to arguing 0w20 vs 5w20 in due time my friend😂

although less meme-level silly insinuation of violence is probably always a good thing.

 

[Mario0617]

Nah fk that first you heard from me 10w50 and send it 😂. (Please don't)

Vegetable oil and give it the beans. I want my engine making a whole dinner at that point

(Pls don’t do this, but if you do post a video. Thanks)

 

[Mario0617]

Hypothetical: same transmission gear ratios and same rear differential ratio. Assuming competent drivers, which car reaches 60 mph first, MT or AT? Which has the lower 1/4 mile ET?

I’m going to say probably pretty similar honestly. The auto gr86 I was in recently felt like ~3-500 Msec to shift. That’s just butt dyno and if anyone knows please correct me.

But that’s in the realm of being doable for a decent MT driver. Plus MT gains the ability to clutch dump and launch harder. As well as less powertrain losses vs the torque converter. I think the MT would be .5 sec quicker to 60 still, and slightly faster around a track just due to weight and efficiency. But it would be closer.

 

[Mario0617]

No idea, I just wonder how fast will AT shift😂

It’s definitely slower than a dct by a lot and noticeably slower than a ZF8 or GM 10-speed. But it also isn’t sluggish. My guess is probably 500 Ms in normal use but it can be quicker when the computer knows you have to shift (like when you’re approaching redline)

 

[Mario0617]

Yeah, I have the MX-5 ND Aisin AT in my 124 Spider and it's not great. My car's a Lusso, so it doesn't have Sport mode like the 124 Abarth with AT. I would like to drive an Abarth sometime and see how much difference that makes.

I have said this many times but I would kill for an Abarth (if I could fit in one with the top down RIP)

 

[Mario0617]

I think 300ms is probably about right given the ZF8 in the Supra will do about 150ms. That's only under full throttle though; it slows down a lot when it detects lower TPS %

There was a thread on FB where MT owners were posting their 0-60s and iirc only the PS4 equipped cars with aggressive launches were seeing anything close to the time magazines were quoting. Plenty were up mid-6 or closer to 7s either due to skill level and/or the Primacys.

So if you're good at driving manual and can launch it hard then its quite a bit faster, but that's only if you're adept at it. From a roll, the manual is def faster no matter what.



This basically.

Yeah the primacy’s suck. I’ve tested it a few times via GPS and I can pretty consistently nail six flat or a little better if I really hit the launch perfectly. C&D got 5.4 but I think that’s a very ideal launch. I have a Limited with PS4s and a catback so nothing really interesting. The car is quicker than people give it credit for under 60-70 but it tends to fall behind other entry level performance cars at higher speeds.

 

[Mario0617]

Interestingly enough, I read an article that Subaru has to implement AEB on their manuals by gov mandate in certain areas by 2024 or 2025, so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

Subaru also said that they are testing EyeSight features with the manuals which makes sense given the above.

I know people love eyesight but it’s annoying in my homies ascent. If you like to butter your way backing into a parking spot with a little vigor it literally loses its shit and brakes for you. Super irritating. It’s based around grandma driving and anything spicier than that it loses it.

 

[Mario0617]

That’s not eyesight. Reverse automatic braking is a different thing and I think manuals get that too?

Mine absolutely does not. I do think it’s part of the eyesight suite but I could be wrong. But neither my MT BRZ nor my same friends MT WRX do it. Just just AT crosstrek

 

[Mario0617]

That’s actually wild. Do the manuals at least get rear cross traffic alert? Or parking sensors?

A lot of quality of life stuff seems like it’s auto only

You get blind spot monitoring/cross traffic. I don’t think there’s parking sensors. This car is tiny, you really don’t need them.

 

[Mario0617]

It will be interesting to see how Toyota and Subaru each diverge their design. The cars have been effectively identical for a decade now, it will be the automotive equivalent of twins separated at birth…

 

[Mario0617]

I’m of the mind that the goal of EV adoption is emissions reduction. Most of the cars (70%) on the road can be swapped to an EV with no real detriment in user experience. Is mom driving 6 miles back and forth to school to drop the kids off every day in her Chevy Blazer going to have a meaningfully worse experience with an EV? No.

Is the office worker fellow who dailys an F-150 (that has never towed or hauled a day in its life as most don’t) 12 miles back and forth to the office every day going to be negatively impacted in any way by a Lightning? No.

But there are also vehicles in which there IS a meaningful difference. Work trucks, sports cars (especially lightweight ones) and cheapo economy cars. If an Elantra already gets 40 mpg, maybe let’s focus on getting the ICE yachts off the road as efficiently as possible before we go after ICE vehicles that are already pretty efficient. Electrifying/hybridizing an inexpensive sports car like ours just seems like a waste on multiple fronts.