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Yeah, but that dulls your ability to actually learn to heel/toe, or get better at it.
Yes, true, but if something can be done using technology then I don’t see what’s wrong with that, at least in some cases. I mean, why have synchros then? Get 'em outta there! Why have any advancements at all?

I know you probably don’t mean it quite that way but if fairly simple tech is available to do something perfectly for us every time and is also able to be turned off…. Then it’s going to be hard to convince me why that’s a 'bad' thing. You don’t need to get better at something that’s never going to be used or required. ;)

That is my point. I have seen a ton of people that praise hondas or hyundai for having auto rev match. They all say they will only use it until they get good at it, then turn it off. But then they never do. 5 years of veloster N ownership later, still cant drive.
I’d also argue it’s a fair point that being able to concentrate on just corner entry, steering and braking with a quick and simple downshift with auto rev match will make you just as quick on a track. And if that’s the point of heel toe…. Then how you get there shouldnt matter. Sure, I have watched the Senna video in the Type R NSX and it’s freeging cool Watching the loafers work the pedals. I’m impressed with race car driver footwork. But it doesn’t mean I’m gonna ever be able to do it and like I said, practicing on your car isn’t good for it, LOL.
 

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How you get there does matter. Do you want to be a better driver or just have a faster time? That is the argument all the auto trans drivers make... "But its faster 0-60... On it track it is better..." Blah blah. Will it produce better numbers on paper..? Sure. Do you drive a spec sheet or a stopwatch?
 

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Yes, true, but if something can be done using technology then I don’t see what’s wrong with that, at least in some cases. I mean, why have synchros then? Get 'em outta there! Why have any advancements at all?
Agreed. Why should those who are afraid they will be seduced by rev matching if it's available dictate what the rest of us get? Ridiculous. If they don't have the willpower to resist it, that's their problem.
 

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How you get there does matter. Do you want to be a better driver or just have a faster time? That is the argument all the auto trans drivers make... "But its faster 0-60... On it track it is better..." Blah blah. Will it produce better numbers on paper..? Sure. Do you drive a spec sheet or a stopwatch?
Well - the better drivers are the faster ones, yes? One of the first sales pitches of heel and toe downshifting is that you must do it if you want to do serious tracks days to shave time off your laps, etc. I get the "not driving a spec sheet" statement and I enjoy shifting myself. But, for me anyways, the rev match/heel toe thing is just out of my reach and I really dont want to dick with it. Id personally rather that particular piece of the equation be solved for me. Thats all.

Then, I can concentrate more on the several other items one must master to be a good all round driver. Its not just "Oh, you can heel and toe? Great, you're on the race team then!" LOL. Nevermind if their braking sucks, turn in is bad, throttle control is bad and any of the other numerous bad habits drivers can have. Just saying.

Its cool - I get that you prefer and promote the more full "hands-on" approach here. You arent the only one. But that doesnt mean the rest of us are wrong for wanting parts of this manual transmission experience to be a little more "automated". I wonder how many 370Z and Civic owners use the auto-blip or how they feel it works?
 

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But that doesnt mean the rest of us are wrong for wanting parts of this manual transmission experience to be a little more "automated".
Problem is, that mentality is what's been ruining cars and diluting the driving experience over the years, and why cars like the BRZ/86 are so uncommon these days and conversely in such demand. It's not really fair that people who are unwilling or unable to get better at driving get to dictate what a car designed for a pure driving experience is for those that are capable drivers. Otherwise, all the nuances and skills that make driving enjoyable and interesting for drivers get weeded out of the experience and you might as well be driving a refrigerator.
 

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Problem is, that mentality is what's been ruining cars and diluting the driving experience over the years, and why cars like the BRZ/86 are so uncommon these days and conversely in such demand. It's not really fair that people who are unwilling or unable to get better at driving get to dictate what a car designed for a pure driving experience is for those that are capable drivers. Otherwise, all the nuances and skills that make driving enjoyable and interesting for drivers get weeded out of the experience and you might as well be driving a refridgerator.
Well - not sure a simple additional feature that can be disabled really fits your description here. I did order the MT because I do enjoy shifting myself. That being said, there is nothing diluting about adding some new tech to the manual experience, IMO. I mean, way back when, why did they start using synchros, for example? It made the whole system better, thats why!

I assure you, I dictate nothing, LOL. You're giving me too much credit. I ordered an MT so I did my part. Its clear that racing(F1) & even most modern, higher end sports/exotics cars have ditched manuals altogether. Why? Not to ruin things for people but rather to go faster more consistently & reliably.

I also have argued that "driving" is more than just shifting. There is a lot more to it than that. I get your "purist" point of view - I do. Ive always had manuals in my sports/toy cars. But it doesnt mean Im not open to improving manuals or how they operate.
 

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many of us drawn to the GR86 as it's a good blend of modern days technology yet it rewards the organic driver's input. Heck, I prefer the normal driving mode gauge than the s2k/corvette style track mode bars just so how old school I am. The car had been labelled last of its kind and yes, part of the reason I bought it as the car is really kind of a celebration of manual, non turbo driver's car.

You got the point of having auto blip as a turn on /off function in the selectable menu as our shift indicator. but I would hate some cars defaulted to have that function n you need to push a button to turn that off every time.

But since you want to bring in professional vs enthusiasts view, lets talk about this:
for Pros and most veterans, it's just 2nd nature to downshift and rev match. In fact someone up there said it perfectly, rev match is more necessarily and easier when you have greater deceleration. (The reason there is not the deceleration rate, rather, it's the time allow your feet and hand coordinates, try upgrade to a BBK with track pad and you will know exactly what I'm talking about.)
Faster driver, most of the time is a better driver than a slower one in competition settings, but not necessary as there are more to race craft than out right speed. consistency, ability to setup the car right, adaptability to different cars and settings, easy on equipment, taking opportunity vs taking chances. All these matters.


Well - the better drivers are the faster ones, yes? One of the first sales pitches of heel and toe downshifting is that you must do it if you want to do serious tracks days to shave time off your laps, etc. I get the "not driving a spec sheet" statement and I enjoy shifting myself. But, for me anyways, the rev match/heel toe thing is just out of my reach and I really dont want to dick with it. Id personally rather that particular piece of the equation be solved for me. Thats all.
As a HPDE instructor catering to introduce the sports, i have a few insights. Faster lap time is not an indication of better driver. (I used to think that way too.). Your quote about the heel and toe itself being a lap time shaver is too simplified. I see a mastered heel and toe driver is someone being easier on your own equipment, awareness of the control (lets just assume we all agree "drivers" in a way is a control freak that wants everything in YOUR control.) and have the ability to receive as much information, input, processing it , then executing it perfectly.

I'm not discouraging you but if a student can't heel and toe correctly at a track event, I will basically have them brake earlier and stay in same gear for more. I will not disqualify their event. but i will send him/her home for more practice on downshift before next event. The lack of that could leads to either riding on brake too long, losing control in corners and mis-shifting, the other huge hurdle of not able to heel and toe is the hand eye hands and feet coordination. I have to admit I'm not a good one as I can't dance at all. BUT i overcame it in terms of controlling the 3 pedals over the years. In that sense, having the rev match would skip me having the need to practice my muscle memories and that can't be good for me in long run.

I have said it before and many times, feel the clutch bite point, my 86 came in very top of the pedal range and that, with the stupid assist spring made it very difficult to rev match. Try adjusting it just a tag deeper if that's the case, (the clutch bite point and spring prevent me from shifting the car smoothly) and also try different seat positions. If you still can't do it right , I'm sure you could always reach out to some more experienced drivers (those who attend autox / hpde) locally to show you and verify with you.
 

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Has anyone who has trouble heel-toe shifting tried the left-right side of the foot method? I tried the heel version at first and found it awkward and inaccurate, so I quickly adapted the left-right method I had been using to start on a hill without rolling back and then I was rev-matching under braking in a lunch period and it's not like I'm not some driving savant, here, though it certainly helped that it was with a responsive carbureted car and cable throttle, not some weirdly calibrated e-throttle. I use the technique as part of every day driving—pretty much any time I'm slowing into lower gear territory while braking and I don't even have to think about it anymore than I would the brake alone. I spend WAY more effort thinking about the speed-distance-are-they-paying-attention quotient of the driver behind me and adjusting brake force and distance accordingly. Also, I have fairly narrow feet, so that's not in my favor.
 

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many of us drawn to the GR86 as it's a good blend of modern days technology yet it rewards the organic driver's input. Heck, I prefer the normal driving mode gauge than the s2k/corvette style track mode bars just so how old school I am. The car had been labelled last of its kind and yes, part of the reason I bought it as the car is really kind of a celebration of manual, non turbo driver's car.

You got the point of having auto blip as a turn on /off function in the selectable menu as our shift indicator. but I would hate some cars defaulted to have that function n you need to push a button to turn that off every time.

But since you want to bring in professional vs enthusiasts view, lets talk about this:
for Pros and most veterans, it's just 2nd nature to downshift and rev match. In fact someone up there said it perfectly, rev match is more necessarily and easier when you have greater deceleration. (The reason there is not the deceleration rate, rather, it's the time allow your feet and hand coordinates, try upgrade to a BBK with track pad and you will know exactly what I'm talking about.)
Faster driver, most of the time is a better driver than a slower one in competition settings, but not necessary as there are more to race craft than out right speed. consistency, ability to setup the car right, adaptability to different cars and settings, easy on equipment, taking opportunity vs taking chances. All these matters.



As a HPDE instructor catering to introduce the sports, i have a few insights. Faster lap time is not an indication of better driver. (I used to think that way too.). Your quote about the heel and toe itself being a lap time shaver is too simplified. I see a mastered heel and toe driver is someone being easier on your own equipment, awareness of the control (lets just assume we all agree "drivers" in a way is a control freak that wants everything in YOUR control.) and have the ability to receive as much information, input, processing it , then executing it perfectly.

I'm not discouraging you but if a student can't heel and toe correctly at a track event, I will basically have them brake earlier and stay in same gear for more. I will not disqualify their event. but i will send him/her home for more practice on downshift before next event. The lack of that could leads to either riding on brake too long, losing control in corners and mis-shifting, the other huge hurdle of not able to heel and toe is the hand eye hands and feet coordination. I have to admit I'm not a good one as I can't dance at all. BUT i overcame it in terms of controlling the 3 pedals over the years. In that sense, having the rev match would skip me having the need to practice my muscle memories and that can't be good for me in long run.

I have said it before and many times, feel the clutch bite point, my 86 came in very top of the pedal range and that, with the stupid assist spring made it very difficult to rev match. Try adjusting it just a tag deeper if that's the case, (the clutch bite point and spring prevent me from shifting the car smoothly) and also try different seat positions. If you still can't do it right , I'm sure you could always reach out to some more experienced drivers (those who attend autox / hpde) locally to show you and verify with you.
Cant argue with much here. Nicely written and thanks for being polite about it. What if one simply cannot master the technique though? Are they now "out" for track events? I can see keeping them in a slower or less advanced run group, maybe but NOT everyone is going to master this. Its "easy" for you and others but not for all of us. Just like reading defenses is easy for Peyton Manning but it doesnt mean Ill ever be able to do it like him! :)

I get the better drive and muscle memory idea. I do. Its just always been elusive for me and I feel that the best I will ever get is being able to rev-match(meaning: NO heel and toe but just brake, off brake, blip/change gear, back on throttle) enough to at least benefit from that part of it. But even that feels hard to do for me. I would consider getting assistance with this though. Im not ashamed or whatever. I do plan on doing a track event next spring at a 1.2 mile course in upstate, NY and we'll have to see how it goes.

It also sucks practicing on your own car. I feel like Im killing it, LOL. Im telling ya - the tranny and clutch in these cars is iffy, IMO. My clutch is ON or OFF. There is NO range.
 

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Cant argue with much here. Nicely written and thanks for being polite about it. What if one simply cannot master the technique though? Are they now "out" for track events? I can see keeping them in a slower or less advanced run group, maybe but NOT everyone is going to master this. Its "easy" for you and others but not for all of us. Just like reading defenses is easy for Peyton Manning but it doesn't mean Ill ever be able to do it like him! :)

I get the better drive and muscle memory idea. I do. Its just always been elusive for me and I feel that the best I will ever get is being able to rev-match(meaning: NO heel and toe but just brake, off brake, blip/change gear, back on throttle) enough to at least benefit from that part of it. But even that feels hard to do for me. I would consider getting assistance with this though. Im not ashamed or whatever. I do plan on doing a track event next spring at a 1.2 mile course in upstate, NY and we'll have to see how it goes.

It also sucks practicing on your own car. I feel like I'm killing it, LOL. I'm telling ya - the tranny and clutch in these cars is iffy, IMO. My clutch is ON or OFF. There is NO range.
The easiest way of practicing heel and toe, first and foremost, correct shoe and technique. As Duchess's mentioned, there are 2 ways of doing that, the textbook heel and toe that your "heel" never touch the ground ; or you leave your right heel anchored to the floor, using left side of your feet to modulate the brakes and move your whole legs (knee) to blip the throttle on your right side of the foot.

I would recommend you learning this in 3 phrases:

1. just getting comfortable of rev matching on the throttle and downshift. take the braking part completely off of your list. So say, on your everyday driving, just casually do 6th to 5th, 5th to 4th. or even 4th to 3rd. don't do any 2nd gear in this phrase, this is just to get yourself trained on the timing on when to release your clutch and at specific rpm.
2. when ever you brake or slowing down your car, practice blipping the throttle with the same feet while you still braking. this one is to train your leg muscle and timing on the throttle action.
3. Once you used to the top 2, combine them.

In real world, none of us who does heel n toe ever think of when and how much we blip the throttle. When I learned the process, what helped me was to remind my brain the moment i touched the brake pedal, my left foot and heel on gas at the same time.

Hope all these help.
 

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Good points, slowV6. I've been doing it for about 25 years, so it's tough to remember starting, but the hardest part, I think, is learning the engine speed per road speed per gear, which is something you pick up with familiarity. In my case, most of my cars had gearing that was pretty similar, but this one is a lot lower than I'm used to, so it took me longer to adapt. It felt like there's an extra gear mixed in there and, from what I'm used to, there kind of is. The only cars I've put a lot of miles on that had gearing this low had 5 speeds. I always think of gearing in terms of mph/1000 rpm, which seems a weird metric (pun intended) to use—and is from an engineering standpoint—but it came about as a practical way of rough calculating what rpm the engine should want to be at per gear at a given speed. I don't know if that helps or makes things worse.
 

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All I can say to sum up how I feel about the debate is that the more technology you rely on is the "worse" driver you are. You may win 1st place in a race but does that make you the best driver? Not if your car was doing all the real work and nobody elses was. These are for the most part street cars, so I know many people do not see it that way. I am very much a "do it right or dont do it at all" kind of guy. Either drive a manual or dont, but dont half ass drive a manual and want it to act like an automatic then call yourself a race car driver because your car drove itself faster than the guys doing it all themselves. Dont confuse this with not being accepting of progress, because it is not the same thing at all.
 

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A bit off-topic but somewhat in the vein of the discussion. I typically like things with fewer electronics when possible (maybe it's just due to flashbacks to the electricity classes I had to take in college) but I have found I quite like having blind spot monitoring and rear cross-traffic alert. I've never owned a vehicle that's had them so driving without them isn't an issue but it is definitely nice to have a safety net if I can't see around cars while backing out. That said, I am not a fan of some of the more advanced driver aids like adaptive cruise and lane keeping assist (luckily I have the manual so not an issue on this car). I've driven a family member's Ridgeline that has all the driver aids a few times and they can be quite annoying let alone sucking the fun out of driving. For the adaptive cruise, I'm used to using the following distance as an indicator of when to change lanes to pass a slower car but a couple of times the cruise has slowed me down without me noticing since the following distance changed. Of course, this could be mitigated by checking the speedo more often but on the highway, with the cruise set I don't feel the need to check it as often. For lane keeping, if you cross a solid line without your blinker on, the Ridgeline not only beeps but will physically try to steer you back in. Fine in theory but kind of scary if you need to swerve to avoid debris, animal, etc and have to wrestle against the steering wheel.
 

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All I can say to sum up how I feel about the debate is that the more technology you rely on is the "worse" driver you are. You may win 1st place in a race but does that make you the best driver? Not if your car was doing all the real work and nobody elses was. These are for the most part street cars, so I know many people do not see it that way. I am very much a "do it right or dont do it at all" kind of guy. Either drive a manual or dont, but dont half ass drive a manual and want it to act like an automatic then call yourself a race car driver because your car drove itself faster than the guys doing it all themselves. Dont confuse this with not being accepting of progress, because it is not the same thing at all.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, can consistently rev match better than a computer. Not even Max Verstappen.
 

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Fair point…but my point is that no human can consistently outperform auto rev matching. I don’t care how good you THINK you are.
Right - thats true. However, I also get the idea behind wanting to do it yourself. Hell - those of us that bought the MT versions of this car already know that the computer can shift more consistently that we can but we still enjoy shifting ourselves. :)

I feel like a few posts have gone too far with something as simple & easy to disable like a manual tranny rev-match feature becoming a huge gate-keep for manuals/driving in general. You still have to up shift, downshift, brake, steer, use the throttle, etc, etc. Even with an auto-rev match, there is still a lot to do and learn all by yourself. ;)
 

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Nobody can pleasure your lady better than her little robotic toy you know. Pretty sure you still want that job for yourself though right? Take some pride in doing something. If you arent good at it, practice and get better. Dont throw your arms up say "f*ck this" and let a computer do it for you. This is so much the millennial mindset. They dont care what is better, only what is easier.
Better times and numbers on paper is not what its about. You honing your skills is. Not just some of them. Not just the easy ones like how to turn and brake. A very good racer of an automatic car is often a very bad racer in a manual. There are levels to the game. If you are worried about the faster numbers on paper, you already bought the wrong car.
 

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Nobody can pleasure your lady better than her little robotic toy you know. Pretty sure you still want that job for yourself though right? Take some pride in doing something. If you arent good at it, practice and get better. Dont throw your arms up say "f*ck this" and let a computer do it for you. This is so much the millennial mindset. They dont care what is better, only what is easier.
Better times and numbers on paper is not what its about. You honing your skills is. Not just some of them. Not just the easy ones like how to turn and brake. A very good racer of an automatic car is often a very bad racer in a manual. There are levels to the game. If you are worried about the faster numbers on paper, you already bought the wrong car.
I rev match every down change. It was a pleasure in my ND because the pedal placement was spot on and the engine was responsive to “blipping”. It’s was really easy to get exactly right 95% of the time. On the BRZ, the pedal placement isn’t perfect and it always feels slightly awkward, and a slight “brush” of the throttle isn’t enough either. I’d say I only get it exactly right about 85% of the time on the BRZ. If the car had auto rev match I’d turn it on for that reason. My wife’s Cooper S is exactly the same (slightly awkward) but has (perfect) auto rev matching…which I use when driving that car.
 
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